A show about what we can learn from anyone’s job
A show about what we can learn from anyone’s job
INTRO [WITH MUSIC]
Thanks for tuning in to Everyday Experts -- a show about what we can learn from anyone’s job.
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SEASON OVERVIEW
[00:00:00] Thanks for tuning into everyday experts. In this podcast, I talk with people from a variety of jobs and industries about the people and systems behind the work they do. Each season I'll explore a different aspect of work by primarily talking with people from outside of traditional corporate settings.
[00:00:20] This first season is all about getting to know your customer.
[00:00:44]In each episode, you'll hear from someone new, a DJ in Chicago who learns how to read the room, a bus operator in New York who practices mindfulness daily, and a physical therapist in San Francisco who exercises empathy when talking about pain.
[00:00:59] The one thing they all have in common is that they are hands on with their customers or their audience.
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[RECORD SCRATCH SOUND]
[2021 UPDATE]
Well…that didn’t quite turn out how we expected did it?
I recorded that introduction back in March of 2020, and I was excited to introduce my listeners to a world of experts I’d come across in my everyday life.
But by the time I was set to launch this 10-season premiere of my first podcast in April of 2020, everything changed.
Everyone I interviewed for this first season (which I intentionally structured as a deep dive into hands-on workers) either lost their job or had to make a complete pivot in the work they do. We all have. Given everything going on in the world, it didn’t seem right to launch this podcast.
The longer the COVID-19 pandemic wore on, the more I started to worry that these episodes, which I’d meticulously recorded and edited over the course of my 9-month pregnancy, were starting to feel like a “time capsule” of a lost era.
Now, here we are -- 2021, and the world is a very different place, and I started to wonder how these people I’d come to consider my friends had spent the past year. So I decided to pick up where I left off and find out.
In addition to my original interviews (all recorded before the pandemic -- from November 2019 through February 2020), you’ll hear a five-minute tag at the end of each episode: What happened next.
My original intent for this series remains exactly the same: To understand what we can all learn from people with jobs in a variety of industries. I hope you’ll come away as I did -- a little bit inspired, and a little bit motivated to become an expert yourself.
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[EPISODE INTRO]
[00:00:00] Paul: [00:00:00] well, it's really all about people because the operations, you know, nobody really wants to see that. Obviously they're concerned if there's an issue, but you want them to get their drinks, to get service, without them realizing that there is a mayhem going on in the kitchen
[00:00:15] Bethany: [00:00:15] For our first episode, you'll hear from Paul Finnegan, owner of st James gate, an Irish bar on the upper West side in New York city. I’ve been going to his bar with my husband for over 10 years -- it’s a local watering hole in my neighborhood.
I originally interviewed Paul in January 2020, just one week before the Super Bowl. At the time, he was prepping his bar for a packed house for one of the biggest sporting events of the year. (Remember packed bars? Remember big sporting events?)
As I learned, there’s a that goes on behind the scenes to make abar work as one seamless operation. A big part of Paul's job is keeping that backstage stuff out so that we, as patrons, can enjoy ourselves.
Like many bar and restaurant owners in New York City, Paul was hit pretty hard with the pandemic. The day the city shut down all restaurants, March 17, 2020 -- St. Patrick’s Day -- was scheduled to be the day of his 12th anniversary in operation. They ended up keeping their doors closed for almost five months.
In the first 30 minutes, you’ll hear about Paul’s work in the before-times...how things were. Then, a follow-up interview on what it’s been like for him since.
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INTERVIEW - PAUL FINNEGAN
[00:00:00] Bethany: [00:00:00] welcome Paul.
[00:00:00] Paul: [00:00:00] Hello
[00:00:01]Bethany: [00:00:01] I've been a frequent attendee of your bar ever since my husband and the sound crew from Shakespeare in the park used to come here late at night, five, 10 years ago. And now I live just around the corner and I can't wait to hear all about what your job is. So you are both the owner and like lead bartender of here. Is that your correct
[00:00:22] Paul: [00:00:22] Owner and bartender,
[00:00:23] Bethany: [00:00:23] What's involved in all that?
[00:00:25] Paul: [00:00:25] Um, a lot of pressure I suppose. Um, what does two jobs, you got to make sure as an owner that you have everything. All the staff have everything that needs to. To do the job, we need to have all the supplies in. Um, and that's what, that's one aspect of the job. And then being a bartender is the other side. So if you have issues during the day with staff or deliveries, you have to kind of keep that in check before you go behind the bar because nobody really wants to see you, an angry, bartender
[00:00:52]Bethany: [00:00:52] there's a lot involved.
[00:00:54] There is, there's it does a lot.
[00:00:55] Paul: [00:00:55] I mean, it's, you're, you're juggling a lot of balls, but, um, it gets done.
[00:00:59] Bethany: [00:00:59] How long have you owned the bar?
[00:01:01] Paul: [00:01:01] Uh, since 2008.
[00:01:02] Bethany: [00:01:02] 2008. Wow. So 12 years.
[00:01:05] Paul: [00:01:05] Two at 12 years we opened up st Patrick's day. So funnily enough, we are to be 12 years in March 17th
[00:01:11] Bethany: [00:01:11] That's amazing. So when you are bartending, one of the things I've noticed about you, and one of the reasons I was excited to interview you is that you have such charisma and connection with the people in this neighborhood and community. How long did that take to sort of develop over time?
[00:01:27] Paul: [00:01:27] Um, I think I, when I was a bit nervous coming to this neighborhood because it's such a. It's such a neighborhood, you know, it's not necessarily clicky, but everybody looks after themselves. Um, so it was a scary move. I worked in Midtown for 15 years before I came here, so that's a totally different experience altogether. I have, you know, you're in Midtown, you're dealing with suits. Uh, you have a couple of hours with them and they're off to the Path train or off to wherever they've got to go to go home. I'm here. It's different. Uh, your customers or your, your locals. Uh, young professionals, um, uh, all the people that live in the neighborhood for 40, 50 years, probably been born and raised in an airport. So it's a, it's a huge mix. So I'd say it, eh, [00:02:10] you know, once I kinda got settled and once I got to know the people, uh, and I think once you trust somebody, you can just like be yourself. So it was kind of easy. It was easy up here. It was easy to, to, to, to get to know all these people and to kind of fall in love with the neighborhood and to follow it over the people that come into the bar. It was easy.
[00:02:27] Bethany: [00:02:27] I can see that. I mean, even seeing you just walk in today, you shook a couple of hands
[00:02:31] Paul: [00:02:31] yeah, yeah, yeah. First thing I do is I always just survey the room just to see like, what am I in for this evening? I usually, it's just walk around, sending out to people first, just kind of get a feel of what they're feeling, and then I go in behind the bar and all smiles
[00:02:46]Bethany: [00:02:46] Can you describe a little bit about the bar itself, like how would you describe St James Gate?
[00:02:51] Paul: [00:02:51] Oooh.. Yeah It's not your typical Irish bar as in um a lot of Irish bars in this town or yeah In this town anywhere for sure are dark Um
[00:03:02] Bethany: [00:03:02] You have a lot of windows
[00:03:03] Paul: [00:03:03] have a lot of windows. We've got high ceilings, so it is very much a non typical Irish bar. But we basically, when we were designing the bar, we, we brought the architect to a bar across the street because we had no taps at the time.
[00:03:17] And we. Poured a pint of Guinness, somebody says, look at the pint of Guinness and I'd like you to create something around a pint of
[00:03:21] Bethany: [00:03:21] Guinness.
[00:03:22] Paul: [00:03:22] So hence the white walls, the black and the white as the black and white. in the Guinness we opened it all up. So it's just one big room where everybody can kind of see what's.
[00:03:32] Everybody's doing.
[00:03:32] Bethany: [00:03:32] That's great. You got that lofted feel
[00:03:34] Paul: [00:03:34] got that loft upstairs as well, which suits 15 people seating on a TV and a server of your own So you can do your own
[00:03:41] Bethany: [00:03:41] And you have several TVs so you attract a sports crowd
[00:03:44] Paul: [00:03:44] We attract a sports crowd We're not a sports bar per se but um we get packed at at um good sporting
[00:03:51] Bethany: [00:03:51] events
[00:03:52] So what are the sort of personalities of the locals here?
[00:03:56] Paul: [00:03:56] Well, it's a huge, a huge, a huge mix. Um, again, a lot of young professionals, um, came to this neighborhood, but fell in love with this neighborhood. Uh, got married, moved into a bigger apartment and started having kids. Um. And so you have that you, and again, you have like a lot of musicians that hung around in this neighborhood to hang out here. We used to do music every Monday [00:04:20] for like five
[00:04:20] Bethany: [00:04:20] years.
[00:04:21] And you're open later than some other bars in the neighborhood.
[00:04:23] Paul: [00:04:23] Well, I try to stay open till four. Um, but if there's nobody coming in at two three o'clock, there's no point in waiting for another hour. So I used to, in mid town, I had to stay to four o'clock. So I was conditioned to stay until close, whether we had no customers or
[00:04:38] Bethany: [00:04:38] me.
[00:04:38] Those are insane hours. Yeah. So what's a typical work day look like for you?
[00:04:42] Paul: [00:04:42] Um, what, it depends really on the day. So say today it's Sunday, it's, it kinda dies down around nine 10 o'clock you can close. At 10 o'clock it dies down. And then around 11 11 12 you'll have. Other staff members are the restaurants and bars that will come in and have a nightcap or two here.
[00:05:01] Um, so that's Sunday, which is kind of a shorter day, but Friday for me, I come in Friday at five o'clock and I pay the wages. I do a quick run around and make sure we have everything we need. And then at seven o'clock, I'll go behind the bar and I'm there til around four, around four, we close up and clean up and we're out.
[00:05:18] Usually five 30 like I this morning I get outta here at, I think it would call it six.
[00:05:22] Bethany: [00:05:22] and when did you get home?
[00:05:24] Paul: [00:05:24] 20 at half an hour,
[00:05:25] Bethany: [00:05:25] back.
[00:05:26] Paul: [00:05:26] drive home and decompress for like an hour. And then, cause it's hard to go home and go to bed. Just cause you could imagine you finished your job at five in the evening and you're home at six, you're not going to go to bed.
[00:05:37] You want to do stuff. So it's a, you want to stay up and do stuff, but it's like six in the morning. Like what are you gonna do? Binge watch a few episodes of the officer, you know. So I tried to train myself to chill out for like a half an hour. I have a quick shower and. Go to bed and lights out, and hopefully I can kind of
[00:05:56]
[00:05:56] calm my mind down a little bit.
[00:05:57] But you're always troubleshooting issues that you may have had that night or an issue with a customer or an issue with the compressor or a refrigerator. It is, you know, there's always something that you may have in the back of your
[00:06:07] Bethany: [00:06:07] are you are also managing all of the people here.
[00:06:09] Paul: [00:06:09] Yeah So I got to make sure we have everything we need, Everything is working up to scratch Uh all the staff are happy Uh so yeah So all these things I got to do before I get in behind the bar
[00:06:21] Bethany: [00:06:21] That must be a lot on your mind
[00:06:23] Paul: [00:06:23] Um you know I bring a lot of it home with me which isn't a really good thing It's not very good in your own timeout [00:06:30] Um but you know we've got I've got staff here who've worked with me a lot of them from day one so it's um so I trust them to do their job I everybody's got their job to do And if everybody everybody does their job correctly then the place kind of runs itself
[00:06:46]Bethany: [00:06:46] how big is the staff total,
[00:06:48] Paul: [00:06:48] 15
[00:06:49] Bethany: [00:06:49] 15 people. So how would you describe your management style?
[00:06:51] Paul: [00:06:51] I think I'm very loyal Um um I'm I won't say I'm tough I'm I'm direct I'll be very direct and and you know you're We teach you how to do things And obviously if if if weeks have gone by and you're still haven't picked it up then I'll have an issue and I might be a little aggressive But it's honesty It's not like I'm not going to just kind of talk around the situation or the conversation or the the uh the objective my disappointment I go directly to it and I'll try and talk to them face to face man to man and um take it from there Hopefully it'll pick up what I'm trying to say and move on
[00:07:29] Bethany: [00:07:29] Do you have training that you do have with new employees
[00:07:32] Paul: [00:07:32] Um yes but it's it's pretty basic considering like most of the staff we get here are already um have experience So you just want to kind of see what their experience is and and pick away the stuff that you don't want and maybe add the stuff that you do want Cause everybody kind of comes with some really good habits and some bad habits from other restaurants and
[00:07:55] Bethany: [00:07:55] fires.
[00:07:55] I want to talk a little bit about the systems behind bartending. So when you are standing behind the bar making drinks and someone gives you a big order, how do you sort of like mentally process that and what's your order of operations look look like?
[00:08:08] like Well, it's
[00:08:09] Paul: [00:08:09] good. Very good question. Uh, it really can depend on the day. It can depend on, again, as I said, like coming in behind the bar after you've S after I've sorted out my stuff, you've got to come in with a clean head and ready.
[00:08:19] If you're not 100% there behind the bar, you're always gonna mess up. You're going to forget the orders. You're going to have to ask. Sorry, what was that again? So. I think to answer that question, everybody their own has their own way of, of, of
[00:08:34]
[00:08:34] breaking down a drinks order.
[00:08:36] Bethany: [00:08:36] How do you do it
[00:08:38] Paul: [00:08:38] Um, I do it for the, [00:08:40] the, the hardest ones for us, the ones that take the most work.
[00:08:43] I I make first
[00:08:45] Bethany: [00:08:45] what would that be
[00:08:46] Paul: [00:08:46] like old fashioneds mojitos um, Manhattans, anything that has got like four or five steps. Like pulling a beer and doing sh and making a shot. Pouring a shot is just, is the easiest. You don't even feel like you're working. Um, so I leave down to the last, so get the heavy drinks out of the way and then fly through the last couple drinks.
[00:09:05] So instead of getting the first couple of drinks out there on the, on a tray, cause they're all dropped at the same time. You don't want to pour a soda or you don't want to pour a glass of. Oh, sparkling wine or champagne or Prosecco and have it sitting on the on the tray for 10 minutes while you're preparing the rest of these things.
[00:09:20] So you do your, your beers, your champagne, and your sodas last as a draft
[00:09:25] Bethany: [00:09:25] So
[00:09:25] Paul: [00:09:25] you
[00:09:25] Bethany: [00:09:25] want the whole
[00:09:26] party to get
[00:09:27] their drinks all at
[00:09:28] Paul: [00:09:28] All at the same
[00:09:28] time.
[00:09:29] Bethany: [00:09:29] That's a good
[00:09:29] protocol.
[00:09:30] Paul: [00:09:30] Well
[00:09:30] Bethany: [00:09:30] Well
[00:09:31] Paul: [00:09:31] don't want, you know you don't want to be drinking your drink and 10 minutes later somebody else gets their drink and then the whole orders all off.
[00:09:37] Yeah,
[00:09:37] Bethany: [00:09:37] that makes sense
[00:09:38] Paul: [00:09:38] You know, everybody wants to kind of cheers together. Cheers, you know it's a kind of a it kind of brings everybody together
[00:09:44] Bethany: [00:09:44] How have you arranged the back of the bar so that you can be as efficient as possible?
[00:09:49] Paul: [00:09:49] Um you know it's funny if you look at photographs of this bar 12 years ago the backbar is exactly
[00:09:55] Bethany: [00:09:55] the
[00:09:55] Paul: [00:09:55] same. Uh you set it up to most people kind of set it up to what they've learned from other bars that they've worked in Uh and then you can kind of mix and match to whatever suits you. So we all have Like kind of two settings in the front and the back are two sides of the bar So if there's two bartenders working you don't have to cross each other so much So there'll be a vodka, gin, and a whiskey section at the end and similar
[00:10:18] at
[00:10:18] Bethany: [00:10:18] the
[00:10:19] Paul: [00:10:19] front
[00:10:19] Bethany: [00:10:19] Okay
[00:10:20] Paul: [00:10:20] Only thing you've got to really share is the glass washer.
[00:10:22] Bethany: [00:10:22] So you have that shared space in the middle for washing.
[00:10:25] Paul: [00:10:25] Yeah the washing is at the end of the bar so you've got to you've got to cross over and we've got a narrow bar so you have to know how to You have to know how the other person works as well. Uh and you would see that when a new bartender works how how so many times we were bumping into each other or lack of communication But if you see me in Shavon working, it's seamless because we know each other so well
[00:10:49] Bethany: [00:10:49] it's like a [00:10:50] body language thing.
[00:10:50] Paul: [00:10:50] Absolutely yeah Yeah. And it's an it's a tight bar behind there So if you don't know that person and you're constantly stepping on toes and banging into each other you know
[00:11:00]Bethany: [00:11:00] So while you are making these drinks you're also I imagine kind of keeping a lookout as to what's happening in the
[00:11:06] Paul: [00:11:06] room
[00:11:07] You're doing you're doing you're doing a lot of things. Well, I am doing a lot of things. I'm making the drinks I'm watching the door to see who's walking in the door to make sure there's somebody there to greet them
[00:11:16] Bethany: [00:11:16] Okay
[00:11:16] Paul: [00:11:16] But you don't want to jump on them because you want them to decide first of all if they do want to come in, if they're looking for somebody I there's nothing worse for me when I walk into a bar straight away someone's like can I help you? What do you
[00:11:27] Bethany: [00:11:27] want Same with small boutiques and things. I hate
[00:11:29] that.
[00:11:30] Paul: [00:11:30] Give me a chance to just take a breath and see what's going on. And if I look like a read something, there'll be somebody there to,
[00:11:35] carry
[00:11:35] it.
[00:11:36] That makes
[00:11:36] Uh, but does that, and then you, you know, you'll always have a couple of
[00:11:41]
[00:11:41] drunken regulars that want your attention. Uh, and that's, I think the most frustrating part of being a bartender is, you know, you want to have a conversation with your, your, your clients, your, your, your customers who are, a lot of times your friends.
[00:11:53] You built that relationship, But you know they can't see that you've got 50 things going on at once, and then they're telling you about their dog that's, you know, got some salt on this paw and had to go to the doctors or the vets and you know, and, and they're telling you this, you know, into such great detail, and you're not trying to, you're not saying like, you know, excuse me, I got a, you're, you're hoping that they would see that.
[00:12:16] You're obviously looking at stuff.
[00:12:19]
[00:12:19] So let's say, okay, I'll get back to you later on Paul and continue this conversation. So that's the thing that really bothers me the most. I think being behind the bar is, is um, remaining calm and continuing a conversation with a customer while you've got all these other things to take care of
[00:12:34] Bethany: [00:12:34] How do you keep control over the room or the whole facility while you're doing that?
[00:12:40] Paul: [00:12:40] And again, that's, you know, um, and that is communication with the floor staff. Uh, again, if everybody does their job right,
[00:12:49] Bethany: [00:12:49] So there's one bartender who's also doing table service.
[00:12:52] Paul: [00:12:52] So the, so, so for example, on a typical Friday night, there's two bartenders and there'll be three servers on the floor.
[00:12:58] Okay. So [00:13:00] everybody's kind of got their area, their section, everybody works together. It's not a, an instance where, Oh, that's not my table, so I'm not gonna drop. This, everybody has their tables, but we all pooled together. We all work together. So we try and make it a huge team effort.
[00:13:16] Bethany: [00:13:16] And what happens when the part of the system down.
[00:13:19] Um, well that's just a glitch in, in the day. Just like your computer breaks down, you've got to reset it.
[00:13:24] What does that look like for you though?
[00:13:26] Paul: [00:13:26] And, uh, it can be, everything is on my face. I, I, I can't really hide anything. It's just who I am. Uh, so. It's up to me to go. Like just say, for example, the dishwasher is an issue with the dishwasher, or there's a flooding downstairs or the toilets are broken.
[00:13:44] It's not to me to, to. call somebody. We have three. We have somebody that we can call and they'll be here in 10, 15 minutes to do whatever they can do to, even if it's just to put a bandaid over the cut uh, and then we'll take care of the main thing tomorrow. It's just getting through that night or whatever issue you have.
[00:14:02] Try and get through it. And then, let's see what else. Once we close or else tomorrow morning, we will take care of it
[00:14:06] Bethany: [00:14:06] You're constantly troubleshooting on the job
[00:14:08]Paul: [00:14:08] I think in this business, every day there is something. There's something that's either broken down or we sold out on something. Always, always, always something I never know what I'm going to walk into before I walk into To the doors. Sometimes I'll I'll overthink as I'm driving into work and I'll have a bit of a not a panic attack but I'll be overthinking situations that I have no or even right to be thinking about it because I'm not there at that. You know?
[00:14:36] Bethany: [00:14:36] Like what's an example?
[00:14:37] Paul: [00:14:37] For example just say say the compressor is has broken in the beer room That which means our tap ears are gone. So when you have no top beers it kind of takes away from from the bar just like if you have no liquor And you only have beer It's not a full bar you know So so so the the worst thing that can happen all is really is is the the compressors to go in the beer room, Because if if something happens to the deep fat fryer the stove you know there's other ways of making the [00:15:10] food. We've got an air fryer we've grilled polyp When you're When your compressor goes in the refrigerator and your tap ears are gone I mean there's nothing you can do about that. You know what I mean? And if you want to get you're not getting a Guinness and if you want to get in it's a Budweiser or a Heineken or a Corona it's just not to cut it right.
[00:15:27] Bethany: [00:15:27] So you were always just needing to do something.
[00:15:29] Paul: [00:15:29] Yeah, I'll always and always got today. Today, it could be the day, for example. So that last Sunday we had . Yeah, super playoffs. And that morning, the TV upstairs broke to one in the lab for 15 people and we had reservations. So of course that was a black area. Then last week, because we were full downstairs, I know we wanted to sit upstairs because it was because it was no TV up there, it just felt like there was no atmosphere. So I have to go and get a new TV and new bracket, have that all installed, but certainly by next Sunday, which is Superbowl Sunday.
[00:16:00] Bethany: [00:16:00] So you are basically the CEO of your business, the COO, but also the customer facing person all in one job. That's a lot to do. How much of this job would you say is about people versus the operations and systems
[00:16:14]Paul: [00:16:14] well, it's really all about people because the operations, you know, nobody really wants to see that. Obviously they're concerned if there's an issue, but you want them to get their drinks, to get service, without them realizing that there is a mayhem going on in the kitchen
[00:16:29]Bethany: [00:16:29] Like a flight attendant on an airplane
[00:16:31] Paul: [00:16:31] absolutely, absolutely. You got to keep calm and you're trying to keep calm. I mean, again, as I said, it's written over my face. If, if there's an issue
[00:16:36] Bethany: [00:16:36] I never see it, for what
[00:16:37] Paul: [00:16:37] it's issue. Well, thank you. Um, I mean, for a few whiskeys, dangers to calm myself down, hence maybe despite on my face, but, um. Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's all about people. I mean, I always say I'm here 12 years nearly, and there's a lot of competition in this neighborhood, so, we're lucky that we're here 12 years and we still have a loyal clientele. But again, I make it personal. know their story. I know where they come from. I know their husbands or wives or kids. You know, it's personal here.
[00:17:06]Bethany: [00:17:06] it's clear that you make a huge effort to do that, knowing people all these years,
[00:17:10] Paul: [00:17:10] but it's, it's in me. You know what it's for example, you know, I worked with a few bartenders over the years who would just shouldn't be bartenders. Like for example, they would serve a drink [00:17:20] and then they would go back to the newspaper and read a newspaper and then wait for somebody to come in and say, I w I, I, first time I saw that I had, there was a head bartender in a bar in Midtown. I was having a panic attack just watching him. Like, how could you even do that? Like, I'd be. I just couldn't, I just couldn't fathom the fact that he could serve a drink and then go back to the newspaper and then go to have another drink to go back to the newspaper would have an absolutely no conversation or no contact with any of his customers who are coming into his establishment, paying for their drinks. And then he expects a tip after him. Just give them a drink and go back to the newspaper. No conversation,
[00:17:52] Bethany: [00:17:52] That's crazy. So what skills do you think it requires to be good at this kind of job?
[00:17:57] Paul: [00:17:57] and you got to be a personal, you gotta be. There. You've got to be in the moment present. You've got to be in the moment and you've got know your stuff. Preparation. You got to be prepared. You've got to have all your everything ready. You have all your backup vodkas, your fruits, your Spears, everything ready so you don't get to leave.
[00:18:14] Bethany: [00:18:14] Do you check that before you start a
[00:18:16] Paul: [00:18:16] I do. Yeah. Yeah. And every bartender kind of has their way of doing things. So when I come in behind the bar, you know, I'll arrange a few things my way. Like I'm, I'm a left handed person. So every more on the daytime staff are our rights. So they will twist their pourers so that they can use the right as opposed to, so when I come in and I'm a, maybe if I'm late, I never get a chance to change it. I'm, you're lifting the bottle and you're kind of twisting it just to get that, because if you do it backwards, it's not going to pour properly. It's to like just kind of spit out. You're not getting the right pour.
[00:18:48] Bethany: [00:18:48] That's really funny
[00:18:49] Paul: [00:18:49] So prep, prepare yourself, have all the fruit up. You need all the juices, the beers, sodas, and then you're good to go.
[00:18:55] Bethany: [00:18:55] You must see the best and worst of New Yorkers by being here. Can you think of any stories of things that have happened in the bar that have sort of like restored your faith in humanity?
[00:19:04] Paul: [00:19:04] Oh, I restored my faith in humanity. Um, well I suppose in again, been in the bar business, just seeing how, uh, the these customers come, you know, come together for each other. If there's a death in the family, if they all come together, even though half the year, they may not speak to each other. Cause they're sick of seeing each other every day at the bar. You know, the barflies. But if something happens to a family member or a loved one, they're [00:19:30] always there, 100% behind them. That's for me, it's very uplifting and very, gratifying to see.
[00:19:37] Um, what was, um, a little weird to see, um. We opened up a really bad time in 2008 when the economy crashed. So what was very interesting for me to see over them few months of this happening was suits coming in, like business suits, uh, highly educated men looking for bar jobs. Just looking for something, a bar back. Just give me, I need something. I got like four kids, got a house out in long Island, I need something. Probably I've got nothing for you and your 25 times over qualified for this job. I would be totally intimidated if you know, if he had worked for you, I have nothing available. But even if he had had, if I had a spot. I think I would have been like, I've not even given him money just to, cause I felt so bad for his situation.
[00:20:23] Bethany: [00:20:23] You're so present with the pulse of New York by seeing these people. That's really interesting. What about the inverse of that? Like what's the kind of dicey situation that sometimes happens at the bar?
[00:20:34]Paul: [00:20:34] Well you can have, you know, people can get drunk and egos come into play and, you know, the fight will break out every now and again. That's very seldom happens here because, you know, we're, we like to call ourselves more of a mature bar. We are surrounded by a couple of college bars, I'm sure, as you know. And you probably frequent them like myself
[00:20:52] Bethany: [00:20:52] 10 years ago.
[00:20:53] Paul: [00:20:53] And so we don't have security at our bar. We're one of the few bars in the neighborhood that has no security. Um, we can kind of take care of ourselves, but there's always, you know, you always have to watch out, you know, a couple of beers in, in somebody who's in a bad mood and some, somebody passing them goingto the bathroom, may hit them on the shoulder and they may just take it the wrong way and just, they're just looking for some sort of a reason to get out the angst and, and try and cause a fight.
[00:21:18] Bethany: [00:21:18] So what do you do?
[00:21:19] Paul: [00:21:19] Get in the middle of it. Like last Saturday, last Saturday, we had a fight here at the bar and I got in the middle of it. Like, you know, your adrenaline is pumping so fast through your body. You're not thinking about yourself. You're just thinking about spitting these guys up and getting one of them out of the bar. So that's, and I just, I just watched the tape of it last night. [00:21:40] Yeah. It took me 15 minutes to pull one guy out cause he was so, it was just so angry, just angry. But the next day, remembered none of it, apologized. Like this is not me. It's not my character. And I get it. Drink can take over. Um, but that's a situation that I didn't expect to deal with when I walked in the door. That's that evening.
[00:22:00] Bethany: [00:22:00] It sounds like part of your job is also psychology.
[00:22:03] Paul: [00:22:03] Oh, that's a bartender's job. 100%. Uh, and I learned that very early on in this business because in Ireland you don't, it's a totally different gig. Hence, hence the. You can pour something, a drink, and then go back and read the newspaper because it's a totally different story in Ireland and, and you don't, you don't schmooze the customers. You just give them a drink and you, off you go. And even if you have to stand behind the bar with your arms folded, looking at the TV, that's what you do. It's, it's to two. And to ask a customer in Ireland, can I get you another drink? It's it doesn't really happen.
[00:22:36] Bethany: [00:22:36] Interesting
[00:22:37] Paul: [00:22:37] You have to nearly ask. You have to ask the bartender for a drink before you will get one here. Here again, as you know, in this business, in this town, you not necessarily hustle, but you're there to get as much money as you can out of the customer, put as much money into the register so you can buy more beer and buy more food for the next week. So it's just, it's a constant cycle of
[00:22:57] Bethany: [00:22:57] You must see, like the highs and the lows of all emotions of New Yorkers.
[00:23:00] Paul: [00:23:00] Oh yeah. Yeah. I've had quite a few fights with, uh, good friends of mine over. The highs and the lows of their emotional state. Um, and you know, I've learned not to take it personal. It's, it's, uh, uh, I'm just a sounding board, really of whatever agnst that's going on of their own.
[00:23:17] Bethany: [00:23:17] So what do you like the most about your job?
[00:23:21] Paul: [00:23:21] There is, there's no better satisfaction than after a good day, sitting down and having a beer and talking about how, how seamless today went and how happy customers were. And that's a day. That's a good day.
[00:23:31] Bethany: [00:23:31] What have you learned about building a community space or watering hole from running this bar?
[00:23:38] Paul: [00:23:38] I have learned that you have to be in a good mood. You know, you want a, you want staff, you want to go into a restaurant or a bar and to be greeted but not fake. You [00:23:50] know, you want to, Hey, how's it going? Like. You know, it's, it's very simple. If you are, again, if you're present and, and you're aware of, of where you are in your job, it should come so easily.
[00:24:03] Bethany: [00:24:03] Well, one thing I've been very impressed by with you in particular is how you remember people's names.
[00:24:07] Paul: [00:24:07] You know, it took me ages. Uh, it took me ages to do that. I, I'd have to write it down. I used to have a cheat sheet at the back of the bar where I write, I'd write couples names on. It was always couples that I've, I've found difficult. because, if it's a single person, you know, you may be getting a credit card, so you've got the credit card with that name. But if it's a couple and they've introduced themselves and you know the minute you take her hand away from there as the name is really gone. So I'd have to, I'd write down a couple of names and then of course they get mixed up of which couple of switch, couple don't have to go back and write down and what, this is what they drink. And then I have to three or four times within coming in and me constantly repeating their name. Yeah. People have said to me before you keep calling, you keep calling my name. And I'm like, it's my way of learning and your name. So if I write it down or if I see it a few times, then it's, and once it's in, it's it.
[00:24:56] Bethany: [00:24:56] That's a good memorization tactic. Um, okay. What do you think is the biggest misconception people have about your job?
[00:25:02] Paul: [00:25:02] I think people just think it, you know, I'm buying some beers, buy some food, opened the doors to Saturday. So simple. They don't realize all the work that gets into you getting that foodwise with sort of them
[00:25:15] Bethany: [00:25:15] yeah. It's, you're making a seamless experience on the front end when the backend is completely
[00:25:18] Paul: [00:25:18] At the backend, you have, you know, to get a liquor license, to get a food establishment license or a cert, you know, keeping all your product fresh. Uh, and. You know, paying your bills, making sure you have that product. You know, it's, this is all work.
[00:25:33] Bethany: [00:25:33] And you do all aspects of that management yourself.
[00:25:36] Paul: [00:25:36] Shavon yeah, she's my partner. she does all the bills and the paperwork more or less. And I will do all the, the person to person, customer relations. I do all the ordering for the food and the beers.
[00:25:51] Bethany: [00:25:51] And what's your drink of choice? when you're here?
[00:25:53] Paul: [00:25:53] Oh my drink of choice. Not by my choice, but the drink. I'd seem to do most of his shots of Jameson. Uh, [00:26:00] again, not by, it's, it's my fault. I started this whole thing, shots, shots, shots, and now what? I'm not feeling the best. And people are like Paul to shotgun on. Like, no, they're like devastated. you. You made me do shots all these years. Now you won't do. And so, uh, I always give in so
[00:26:20] Bethany: [00:26:20] I saw your Jameson belt. that very impressive.
[00:26:22] Paul: [00:26:22] Um, uh, I think schools, I think two has been stolen. Um, so I'm, I'm on dry, January now, but my drink of choice would be, um, probably Miller Lite.
[00:26:32] Bethany: [00:26:32] Miller Lite!
[00:26:32] Paul: [00:26:32] And the reason I say Miller light is because when I go drink and I'm drinking for an extended period of time, and if I just start drinking pints of IPA five or six pints, I'm getting a taxi home.
[00:26:42] Bethany: [00:26:42] Do you have to drink every day at work?
[00:26:44] Paul: [00:26:44] I don't have to. Um, I try not to, but it's very hard not to, because there's always many people wanting to have a drink with you, whether it's a shot or have quick, have a quick beer or, and you know, if I say yes, to everybody, you know, I'd be hammered. And I have said yes to many people over the years, and I have, you know. Learn by my mistakes. So moderation at the end of the day because nobody likes a messy. drunken bartender. Yeah, they're fun. They're fun, but at the end of the night, it doesn't, it's not really fun. You're trying to do the money and trying to clean up and it's just not, it's just not worth it.
[00:27:17] Bethany: [00:27:17] um, all right. Is there anything we didn't talk about in terms of what your job is that you think would be relevant or interesting for the
[00:27:24] Paul: [00:27:24] Yeah. I'd like to find out who took them small bottles of Jameson from that belt is what I I think they're, um, um, no, I think it's a, I think it's just a, it's a, it's a, it's a very interesting, job. Um, there is a time, there's a time on it as well. Like, you, you can't do this when you're 60,
[00:27:44] Bethany: [00:27:44] Right.
[00:27:44] Paul: [00:27:44] I mean, you can do, you can manage the place
[00:27:46] Bethany: [00:27:46] Your schedule alone is crazy!
[00:27:46] Paul: [00:27:46] But yeah, but you can't do the bar and manage. It's just too much. You know, you're on your way. You're on your feet as it is 12, 13, 14 hours a day. Like, like on a Monday. Right. I used to do double Monday. I come in at 11 o'clock in the morning and I leave at 4:30 in the morning. So that's what, 16 hours?
[00:28:04] Bethany: [00:28:04] Is your body just nocturnal now?
[00:28:07] Paul: [00:28:07] Yeah, well, [00:28:10] yeah, yeah. I can sleep anytime, but it'd be two hours and then I'm awake and then I have to fuck. I'll tell him, what day is it? What time is it? It depends. Um, uh, yeah, yeah. I can feel my knees now. Like if I work two long days, I gotta get in the morning. I can feel it in my knees and my ankles, and I'm a, I'm a bit of a runner and I've kind of stopped for a while because of them issues. So I'm going to get started, start getting back into bike, just to build up the knees and the ankles.
[00:28:37] Bethany: [00:28:37] That makes sense. It's a, it's a very physically demanding job in
[00:28:41] Paul: [00:28:41] Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, I never sit down to eat. I eat standing up. I've done that for years. So I am, when I actually get out and go to a restaurant, I, I sit down and I take my time.
[00:28:53] Bethany: [00:28:53] Good for you
[00:28:53] Paul: [00:28:53] I eat very, very slowly and I enjoy every morsel.
[00:28:57]Bethany: [00:28:57] all right, my last question is, what is another job or profession that you admire?
[00:29:03]Paul: [00:29:03] I've always wanted to be a basketball player.
[00:29:05]Bethany: [00:29:05] Really? Why do you like basketball players?
[00:29:09] Paul: [00:29:09] Well, it's, it's my favorite sport to watch. It's the, it's such a physical sport. I mean like baseball, you know, you can be just hanging out with the side. Really. Uh, it's just a, it's, it's a team effort. It's a physical game. Uh, I love the idea of sweating for that length of time and finished, and you have shower and you just want to go to bed. I, I jogged on happy days.
[00:29:29] Bethany: [00:29:29] I like it. That's great. Well, Paul, thank you so much. I want to be mindful of your time so you can get back to work. It's been great to frequent your bar all these years, and I look forward to keeping coming back.
[00:29:39] Paul: [00:29:39] Thank you.
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TRANSITION
You've got a sense for what it's been like for Paul working as a bartender and bar owner at St. James gate. Now let's hear it it's been like one year later. For this second conversation. I called Paul over zoom. So you'll notice the audio quality isn't quite as great. And I asked him a few questions: how has it been since the pandemic hit? How has your job changed? Since we last spoke? What happened? Here's what he had to say.
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2021 UPDATE
[00:00:00] Paul: [00:00:00] We were closed for, five months. It was it's so five months in, on the second month, our head chef had died, which had made it very, very personal this whole pandemic, this whole disease. So he did. Yeah. Um, we were hospitalized for 10 days on a ventilator on the 10th or 11th day, the doctors pulled them off and a young man49 years of age nine or 10 kids, I think at nine kids. Uh, yeah, great man. He was with us from, from day one from our first venture in 2007, he was with us. So a big loss, a sad loss. Um, it certainly brought, as I said, things became very personal then. Um, we opened up, 1st of August with, outdoor dining only. We carved out, um, approximately 30, 35 seats. We have, a bus stop right in front of our store. We got a fire hydrant on the side of the store. So we were pretty limited really what we could do. And you know, when the weather was good, we were so lucky to have great customers, great neighbors.
[00:01:08] And we rocked it out. I mean, everybody again has the neighborhood partied every day. Uh, um, once, twice, three times a day, they would call and sit down and have a bite to eat and have a beer and move on and come back again. So we got to know our customers in a different level.
[00:01:24]I'll tell you what I learned and I T I, and this is probably for me anyway. Um, I've learned that if it is out of your control, That there's nothing you can do. You just have to, you know, I had no control. I had no power, so I wasn't anxious about stuff that I wasn't doing. You know? I mean, I'm always kind of hard on yourself when you're, when you got responsibilities, you feel like, Oh, well I didn't do this way. I didn't do this. Right. So the fact that I had no power to do anything, I felt I could breathe a little easier. If that makes any sense, it breeds for nothing really, but it was able to exist or exist Bethany, without the stress. I don't think I'd ever go back to bartending again to 4:00 AM. And I think a lot of, um, I think a lot of bartenders would [00:02:10] be happy with, you know, at 12 one, two o'clock shutting down at 4:00 AM. It was kind of dying down anyway, but to me, the bartending gig has certainly changed a lot over the last 30 years. And, um, yeah, I doubt you'll seemoney bars, real thing till 4:00 AM.
[00:02:27] Bethany: [00:02:27] And what are your relationships like with customers in this new era?
[00:02:32] Paul: [00:02:32] They've gotten this they've certainly gotten stronger between the staff and the customers themselves, this last nine months has, has kind of if speed walk their relationship five years ahead, really? Um, because a lot of the regulars who live in the neighborhood and we've got quite a lot of regulars, all became one team who would share a table of six or eight and, you know, they would sit with each other for hours upon hours during these days and, and, um, swap phone numbers and meet with each other. And these are people that would have just said hello to each other at the bar, and now they're, you know, personal friends and know details about their family members. And, you know, it's, it's, it's made everybody tighter group, certainly a family affair now. Um, w we're we're very lucky, you know, during all of this, that we've, um, we've been able to be able to survive and, and the core is stronger than ever, which is just an amazing feature, I suppose. And we were lucky to have a really nice summer weather-wise because it was a pretty decent summer. Um, so, you know, it was a great buzz is a great feeling. It's everything changed. And you know, you, you, you, you want around with a bit of a lighter step, you know, because people were kind of trying to celebrate coming from cocooning for so many months.
[00:03:55] Bethany: [00:03:55] And what about the winter?
[00:03:58] Paul: [00:03:58] Well, that has proved to be a big problem for, and he, uh, restaurants in the city or the neighborhood. It's been tough with the weather has been terrible, you know, outsiders are in front of the ticket office again. So we're dealing with outside, uh, when it's, so sometimes it's so cold, even if you had heating lamps, which we still don't have yet. I was waiting wedding for [00:04:20] them to be delivered. We're waiting seven weeks now, everything is back ordered.
[00:04:24] So, uh, so yeah, this business has been terrible for the last couple of weeks because of the weather. Um, so we're, we are at the mercy now off the weather. I'm hoping with this vaccine that people will, will all take it, um, and, calm down and feel that they can continue their life. I just pray it it's going to be a, you know, a good year for everybody and that we come out of this and it'll be slowly but surely a part of the past that we don't think about every single day, every minute of the day.
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[OUTRO]
[00:00:00] Bethany: [00:00:00]
After our first conversation, I remember being most impressed by Paul’s way of organizing his work station, defends his turf when fights emerge, and even the systematic way he served drinks.
Today, in a winter world with only outdoor dining allowed and no heat lamps, all that seems like small potatoes.
To be a bar owner is to be agile, resourceful, and people-focused. Paul has always been this way. He spoke in our first conversation about how his mind was always going a million miles an hour, how he spent so much time on the locals who visited his establishment. But one year later, I took away a few different themes, ones that didn’t emerge our first time around.
COVID, to Paul, has given him a chance to start fresh. To recalibrate his own boundaries and draw a line in the sand. No more 4 a.m. late nights. No more clinging onto problems you can’t control. In a way, that in itself is liberating.
He also seemed to double down on the community around him. Despite the tragedy of losing his head chef to COVID, the rest of his crew stayed together, closer than ever. While we conducted this second interview in a socially distanced Zoom call, I could just tell his face lit up when he spoke about the neighbors who visited the bar two, three times a day, during the summer. Sharing phone numbers, being a part of each other’s bubble. That’s the reason he’s still doing what he’s doing. I asked Paul at one point, did you ever think about closing down completely? He told me, “No, that was never in the cards.”
I think we can learn a lot from Paul’s approach to people management, problem solving, and resiliency. It also, more than ever, made me wish I could just pull up a barstool and order a beer on tap.
If you’re in New York, Paul’s bar St. James Gate is still open on the corner of W 81st St and Amsterdam Ave. I’m sure he’d love to pour you a glass.
Thanks for listening to this debut episode of Everyday Experts. You can find this conversation, a transcript, and some photos of Paul and his bar on my website, everydayexperts.co.
In our next episode, we’ll hear from a Chicago-based DJ who knows how to read the room better than anyone. And how he spent his time in a year without large gatherings.